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Read this: The PM and D-Day: how the row unfolded

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The PM and D-Day: how the row unfolded…

You're about to listen to a BBC podcast and maybe it's when I had a hand in my walkie a producer podcast for the BBC my role in giving you and I first creators of voice with the opportunity to that thing.

I love about podcast you start with just a good idea when you have the space to see where it goes and doing that the BBC means we can really run with the best stories for developing the most unique so if you like what you hear why not check out the huge range of podcast we've got on BBC sounds music Radio podcasts the media show from BBC Radio 4 this week's ITV Paul brand will tell us about the interview he recorded with Rishi Sunak on the day the prime minister left the D-Day commemorations early more on baby reindeer has Netflix is sued by the woman who says the Stalker in the series is based on her and is in accurate even if you've not seen baby reindeer will get into why this league.

Matters academic you studying media coverage of the election last week only one party.

He says receive more positive coverage than negative Nigel Farage is the clue on plus will be looking at how YouTube is influencing the way reality TV is made with no the prime minister leaving the D-Day commemorations early became a huge story in the media is of course you know Anna Grande listening will know you're gonna help us plot out.

What happened as the story game.

When did you first start talking to number 10 about doing interview shortly answer the election was called so in every General Election the Tonight program.

Does a series of profiles of all the main party leaders Britain and so those conversations begin pretty much as soon as the election is called so we start a conversation with the Conservative Party in this case and saying here are the days that we could do is the available any of these days.

Play when we like to broadcast the program therefore we have this amount of time to actually put the program together and the conversation goes from there.

When did the date of last week come up so by Wednesday of last week, are we still didn't have a date with the prime minister and on that Wednesday they offered the Thursday and said that it was the only slot of the 36th suit us actually as a programme because that is almost the week before we go to are you like to record the into a little bit closer to her as we see my actions, Newbury quickly so we do you prefer to do on either Friday or the Sunday but we were told Thursday was the only option and obviously we don't get the saying that and when they suggested Thursday did you one of your colleagues go that the D-Day commemoration to be registered that was bad son usual time to suggest we didn't know what I said you was at that point so we win actually wear that you was going to be cutting those commemorations short to fly back.

We were given a time which?

In the afternoon on Thursday but we arrived at interview not really in all honesty realising the significance of what was about to Enfield but since then the interview released a clip of the prime minister arriving for the US just a little bit of that the apology to keep a powerful trip I mean so that's part of a longer clip that you and your colleagues are released tell us the decision-making process by that because the prime minister my to that stage he was greeting you not necessarily being recording so from our point of view.

We made it clear actually to his team that we would be recording is arrival at that into you.

It's part of the colour of building so when you're trying to profile either as we do and we we like to show them or personal side of the leader as well as their policy proposals of course you want that kind of behind-the-scenes essence of an interview to say.

As you'll see for example quite often in Party Conference interviews that you're Bliss goes to will do after it goes off and you do set up a Wide Shut so you get that greeting you get the handshake and it just helps the story along as you can get in to that interview from that point so we made it abundantly clear that we're recording that moment so they should have been a surprise and did you have a sense at the time sitting down? Is it Rishi Sunak actually him being there with you would within hours become an enormous touring with in just over 24 hours would be the lead story not as big as story is it was because of that point we haven't had the visuals out of Normandy and I think it really was that lineup of world leaders and our Prime Minister being absent the really hammered home David Cameron's minister taking the base of the current prime minister that I think was the moment when people thought hang on a minute this doesn't look right for a British money is not to be there ok.

She's going to pick up the chronology of the store in the moment, but one other points as the day was.

8:45 in the evening after you've recorded interview you tweet that you've done this in it seemed to me on social media certainly that was the point at which the UK media is a whole the training on the story.

Yes, I think you will make the connection at that point the reason we tweeted out some of our interview was because I said to you earlier.

We recorded it quite far in advance broadcast and there was some aspects that interview by time-sensitive particular try that have been having about their tax proposals that have been a very live issue in the ITV debate that happened last week on the Tuesday will be remember those accusations flying around missing you was the first time she said I can spoken Sims 2 debate you've been called a liar witcher 3 Series activation to make we need to get those clips out as soon as possible, so they didn't date we can't wait all week that point of course people then made the connection wait so we left Normandy so when did he do this interview and I'll use it and that evening we decide to be completely transparent as always try and be and spelt out what time was.

And I'm going to pick up with the timeline, but I wonder did you in hindsight feel it was a mistake not to have asked him about leaving the same thing at that point anyone realise the significance of what was happening in obviously we were watching the D-Day coverage of the over those two days when he arrived in that interview.

It was a topic of conversation as you've heard you know just phoned for a while about the significance of D-Day but I don't think you can always have a crystal ball about what's going to reignite in the public consciousness and that was just one of those stories that completely ignited without anyone really on either side anticipating it well.

Let's look at that timeline of what happens next after use interview the prime minister's on Newsnight later that night after you put your to eat out.

I think you've heard on News at Ten on Newsnight the creator of the Conservative Home website Tim Montgomerie was told that the prime minister has done an interview on his return a political interview and then.

Recalling that he talked about political malpractice of the highest order that clip was widely shared then the next morning with the exception of the mirror.

You know the papers still had limited coverage of the D-Day story but by the following day, which was Saturday most of the national newspapers were splashing with the real.

I'd like to bring in Camilla Tominey who's associate editor of The Daily Telegraph and Co presenter of the daily tee podcast hello my love.

Thanks for coming on the media show Hi Katie hello, when did you realise this was a big deal that this was a big story well funny enough to go back in the timeline.

I was wearing two hats because we are working on the Telegraph from the daily tea and Nigel Farage tweeted that afternoon that wish you soon.

I could left and then because I was also presenting on GB news Nigel farage's old show that night so I recorded my podcast by day and then that evening at 6 p.m.

Sorry, I was due to do a deed a special and my produces discussed with me whether we should discuss Rishi Sunak rapid departure from normal on the back of marriages tweet but one of the reasons why I think the media covered it later is because I took the editorial decision that night, but what we should be focused on is that second day of the Normandy because I felt on that Thursday evening people have been at work.

They hadn't seen everything that have played out on the beaches and therefore we should just keep that show clean it was basic highlights of the Day episode and then deal with the Fallout the following day, so it that that point you didn't think it was a story or you very much just wanted to focus on D-Day the latter, so I thought it would be a story but I thought that it was a bit of an insult as the commemorations by the way was still ongoing so when I was on there on that Thursday night, but commemorations were still.

Going into the evening we were having some very moving and quite emotional conversations with our Correspondents in Normandy about what was playing out so I took the editorial decision at that we shouldn't sorry that with a row about the timing of Rishi Sunak departure and I think that also might explain just from a media perspective why people then covered the story the neck because I think it would have looked wrong for it to overshadows the actual commemorations Thursday into Friday's papers.

We lead with the D-Day commemoration on Thursday evening, but we recognise that point this is going to be huge story so we had probably about 10 minutes of D-Day coverage and then we ran with the little story of the day tonight arguing about tags and we made the connection yes this interview what happens if you come back from the day and it will probably be a matter of some controversy.

Ok, do you think Camilla as well and and

The next morning that Friday morning was when the prime minister tweeted an apology at 7:45.

Do you think that's actually influence the media coverage if he hadn't apologise? What would have happened? Will it be in a bigger story or less of a story? I mean it was going to be a big story anyway because the condemnation was so widespread.

So it was one of those sort of disastrous events in if anyone listened to speech radio that morning.

Obviously you had Radio 4 Today covering it with already seen the Fallout from Tin Montgomery's interview on Newsnight the night before then if you listen to any speech members of the public were phoning in I mean on LBC with Nick Ferrari his correspondence Henry Riley was in a taxi with a load of veterans.

They were than a pie.

What was Rishi Sunak thinking so it was just one of those stories that frankly it got bigger as the public outrage about it.

Got bigger which was then being channelled through all saw.

Front Media TV to pick up on that have been following the Montgomery interview but bear in mind by that point Katie the papers have gone to press.

So that apology was intended by overnight and early morning calls saying is Richie can apologise for leaving early and the next day.

I said the national newspaper splash with it on Saturday actually didn't Mail didn't and neither did the Telegraph why did your paper the Telegraph not on its front page that Saturday I need to think back to that front page, but it was the first time buyers and you had Michael Mosley I think from memory yeah, Michael Mosley but also in front page story the subject is revealing that there's been a bungalow vuity day, but the impetus as well for that Saturday paper was to try and get the best line ahead of the manifest.

But I think you'll find that on that front page the D-Day debacle is also marked it just isn't the Splash headline and it's not the way the other papers were mocking.

It does look like you weren't just focused on it as some of the other papers were well.

The papers are completely different entity to the website the website was running live blocked coverage of the four out of the debacle.

We even did a readers poll which had revealed overwhelmingly thousands of people voted in this poll that he'd made a giant error and we were featuring in the live blog constant reader feedback to the story so I mean with respect we looking a bit the print edition is the print edition and was chosen for the front of that this was all the website telegraph website literally from the crack of dawn on that Friday morning and it's a digital-first organisation and what's fascinating about this story of one of the things that fascinating is the inside.

Is in the house stories build the saying he thought it was the tweet from Poole in at that time on on Thursday night that potentially you know that you were talking about Nigel Rogers tweeted it for you.

What was the moment that that that kicked this from a story that nobody was really looking at to the huge store it became I think the timing as I say people were looking at it in the evening but judging the appropriateness of overshadowing legitimate Normandy commemorations, but of course if a prime minister apologises anything then that blows it up anyway, even though it's always good to apologise because then you're trying to own the story the way that the apology was made on x which people thought was trapped in a pro and then subsequent TV interviews that he used for an apology then were criticised for being slightly bigger judging and not sincere enough.

Enfield the flames and Paul Grant for my CV you one of the early recordings on partygate, is it common for a story to take time to build a gap between what you were feeling when everyone everyone else you know everyone else doesn't getting involved but I think it's all honesty you never really know how is story is making out with the public for sure until it happens so is coming as we had Inklings on that Thursday afternoon is DJ itself that this was a bad idea for a British runners to leave it until those pictures play out on the evening news at 6:30 and kacy the BBC you don't know how that he was going to connect with that very visual image of a Prime Minister being absent and it does take time for things to build a view to have that feedback loop of maybe they might be I'm in the case of partygate.

I've said before when we first broadcast the initial video of staff laughing about adding street party.

We have no idea how big or small that.

In the end, it was huge, but we don't know we know we can't get into the Minds of every every single view own.

It's only until the story starts playing out that you get a better feel for it a bit of Arc for it which is why the case the newspapers email today 1-2 days for it to really pick up the D-Day in our case it.

It's a couple of hours before it was on the 10:00 news, but it does take a while for that feedback loop to kick in to me and I wonder whether you can get inside the brains of the advisors around but she's in that people have been saying to me that actually the decision being made was about not wanting potentially to be standing it didn't need to be the international international.

It was about standing around with some EU leaders and potentially the Optics of that wouldn't look that good you wanted to spend time with D-Day veterans, but not be surrounded and have taken with lots of EU leaders to do that at all.

No not necessarily.

I mean this is the problem when you have an experience p.m.

Who let's be honest was only elected to Parliament in 2015.

Surrounded by equally quite experienced advisors because if you sort of done the chess moves further ahead that you know the sort of pr.

Thinking that's associated with say the word minute you look forward and you think yourself or who is he going to end up being photographed with in this case we had his lenski and starmer we have David Cameron there looking more statesman.

Like than Prime Minister in is already been a criticism that camera is looking like the defaqto p.m.

Overseas, and then you realise you know this has been one of the total Pool things one of the problems with the administration.

Is this inability seemingly to think a few stages of head and understand how things might land even if decisions have been taking the best of intentions and that's a lot of wisdom and experience for what do you think about my looking election campaign? I'm not going to start criticising any particular party, but I think every leader has a problem that there is a temptation to surround themselves with a very close.

And sometimes you need to widen that vehicle and bringing other people who might see things with a fresh pair of eyes perhaps that that has happened to Rishi Sunak is Sydney happened to the politicians in the past and pull your interview with talk to you playing out this evening on ITV at 7 tonight and I wonder you have this in the cam for close to a week Nick Robinson are you on the BBC Panorama on Monday that has it been you know he say anything to get this out that you think about bring it in earlier.

No in all honesty because the approach that these profiles is quite different so we do see them as much more the personal profile of a leader which is why that you'll see me tonight for example asking what she said that is background in his and his wealth which is that we released early at this caused a bit of a headache but we do much would have brought a look at the leader and we build our programs as your see this evening in in a way that kind.

Their backstory with VT seasons and video is not just that it's going to be together and if you want to just different formats for different platforms is a software that is that fair or I wouldn't say it's often.

I think if you wanted to know you're doing it soft it's just a more holistic approach where we try to bring back bring to go.

I don't see many knowledge that people might have to bring together the whole story about their personality and their politics and their policies in the election.

Do you think that's something that both politicians and journalists a cleaner on doing now than that they might have been 10 years ago or 20 years ago maybe but I think they will see the pitfalls of it right.

I mean Rishi Sunak this morning and the cuddly pronounce talking about what he missed out on in childhood and he says Sky TV in some people have wrapped on that as an example of them being out of touch Theresa May have the same problem when she talked about running through fields of wheat as they're naughty as moment right.

So yes in some instances.

Like to be able to get across their personal backstory.

We sitting here.

It's just about talking about time you generally about is mum being a pharmacist is Dad a GP and likewise Keir starmer instead of a toolmaker etc.

They want to do that, but I think they are also where the very dangerous in Indian that too I'm looking at the front page of the BBC News website at the moment.

What are the top stories the headline is I went without Sky TV as a child has soon.

I cannot have courses come from your interview Camilla let's bring you in because on your new podcast The Daily t u and Kamal Ahmed also interviewed the prime minister of the talked about to have a range of things including how he likes to take his teeth.

So this is a slightly gentler approach than some political interviews take what's the calculation? There are the calculation is that he does a lot of the combative stuff and we wanted him in more discursive mode.

So you know obviously there's a time and a place for for the fire interview.

You know any Today programme or any other show in this we wanted to try and get behind the real Rishi Sunak

And see what he was all about and particularly in the podcast medium because it's more gentle and it's in people's ear when they're commuting all day walking the dog or they making supper it to be to sort of Andrew Neil assure.

Jeremy Paxman doesn't quite work and therefore.

There's a sense to it.

You want to get the subject very comfortable in the studio which he was going to be handed in here very early in the morning and surprisingly good mood was quite happy to talk about the source of light stuff we reflected on the rain so suits, you should have been viewed by millions of people and reflected on the Harry tickety and who is like to have tea with an a little bit about Star Wars and then I started asking questions about whether he was wet conservative and when was the last time you was in touch with Boris Johnson so course you're going into any interview Like That wanting to get news lines, but you've also got the audience in mind and there is this sense particularly with the prime minister.

Keep his private life very private that.

Want to know a little bit more about the person.

They may or may not be voting for and this is all new podcast The Daily tea.

It's been going a few weeks now as I'm sure you're acutely aware.

You're stepping into a busy market for news podcast so I wonder what the calculation here is what you think you can offer the we can't get my whole range of views podcast that already out.

There are the kind of inside The Newsroom so I've got a huge amount of expertise in The Newsroom just behind me we built this new studio overlooking it because a lot of the journalist here are working on stories and working on the granular detail all the time and sometimes all subjects.

It's best to just get a journalist in to explain it rather than say for instance the Minister for paperclip.

Yes, there are a lot of podcast not very many actually on that centre-right ground which we think so breaking new ground on because a lot of them seem to be quite left-leaning and also the appetite for podcast particularly among older people is growing we know the 18 to 24 year olds have been very keen to get into.

Some of our internal in Telegraph data suggesting that the over 35 hours now woken up to something and you know rather than just discussing the headlines.

They want to know the wires well as the what what we think tomorrow and I will always have BBC experience and indeed my Fleet Street Experience if you can still call it back combined brings to the table also win oxide of giving our opinions by committee or have an ideal Logic because we Once Upon a titian.

We're doing it because we're journals sharing what we know and one other thing I must ask you about Camilla is the Telegraph and the Conservatives obviously the paper has a long history of coming behind the Conservatives and the whoever is looking to be Prime Minister on behalf of the Conservative how do you think the leadership at the Telegraph is viewing Rishi Sunak well? I think the read I think the leadership in the Telegraph has got lots of different views about Rishi Sunak which are often colourful expressed in leaders meetings as you can imagine a huge range.

Opinions on the current conservative government the rise of reform what labour may or may not do in office and all opinions are always welcome, so if you read the comment pages, you'll know that.

There's a huge diversity of the baby of a comment pages, but in the end of Telegraph is going to have to decide whether it Lindos Rishi Sunak to be Prime Minister after the election.

Do you think it'll do that have to ask my head above my paygrade but I can't comment further on that I'm afraid I am editor if I ever and it says that we'll see how they feeling right now and depends what happens on election day.

I guess we have got one more guest to talk about the election of specifically about election monitor who is Professor Dominic ring who's author of the center for research in communication and cultures weekly reports from Loughborough University on the UK Wi-Fi television and print Media is reporting of

General Election professor ring thank you for coming on at the media show I know you've done this in previous years and appeared on the media show talking about it, but tell us what you've set out to do in this election when we've been doing anything tonight t92 monitoring and television and press during general elections in fact.

This is our time campaign if we can't the brexit referendum and what we do is we analyse the major news bulletin for the BBC iTV Channel 4 Channel 5 sky look at GB news as well as the 10 daily paid for all newspapers for Monday to Friday and what are you finding this time round, but it's early days.

There's been a lot of process coverage, so we look at process and look at policy.

So this is the kind of cover.

It's not about policy so the DJ which wasn't the DJ in which wasn't in our first reports.

We will covering the week before but we expect this week would be a lot of process because that's the kind of drama.

The horse race aspect to the campaign and clear this is a very good example of that but in terms of policies, what we've seen the first week tax and immigration of being very high on the agenda and also what's notice is the two men party leaders.

Are you very much to the for that might be expected but Nigel Farage and also is Richard Tice have made a special as well and noticeably crowded out other available time and press time for you and all the other rival leaders of the Liberal Democrats in the SNP and the greens of somewhere Behind Those reform hair and have you found big differences in coverage between the TV what TV covers and what printer covers?

Yeah, I mean certainly terms of the Liberal Democrats have a good example traditional Liberal Democrats I got a lot of broadcast bedtime in general elections.

They don't get as much pressed Tyne and Wear the reform party really kind of things open at course with what's happened with the day.

We might expect the carry on that meant to mean to the next week and who knows beyond can you talk to you earlier about process was encourage your processor.

You were putting DJ into that just explain what process what you meant by process food processor shoes that have so far been at the Poles has been a lot of in in the polling data that we've seen already predicting potential difficulties for the Conservatives and secondary loss of this study day is a good example of this very much interested in the journalism.

Paul was referring to that and obviously all story around that particular Saga and Infirmary also very much for process has been to the full.

Opening week that we looked at has been the role of internal parties elections only focused on the labour party in our first report that we will expect the incident with Richard Holden another Conservatives to come up in the second.

We look at the circle Chicken Run involved in your party prominent party people in their seeking other seats has been quite a lot of coverage about that and interestingly in the first report that would put out second most prominent labour person aftercare starmer was Diane Abbott which reflects of course the prominence given over that particular story that would not be allowed to stand in her constituency many decades of representing Hackney I guess we were talking earlier about the Telegraph endorsement of the Conservatives the male has also indoors, but can you I wonder what you're thinking about? Where are the party is my where are there any newspapers might go does it matter does it mean comparing with the previous elections?

Yeah, I think it's very interesting last election is a lot of antagonism towards Labour and Jeremy Corbyn this time.

I think it's a plague on both your houses so far so far as the Telegraph and what is quite interesting very critical of the Conservatives have more critical of Labour the other papers the mirror pre-labour Mail express interest of the news UK titles criticising both Labour and the Conservatives I'm really small labour, but it doesn't indicate at least at the station.

It's tentatively early stages.

It doesn't necessarily indicate that they're gonna find Labour in the final as soon as I mean things do change during the campaign but at the present time they're very critical of both of the major parties playtime the song that is and they would probably say there were doing the feelings of the readers that all the answers on digital and in print and in terms of the wider trends that you've noticed compared with previous elections.

I'm in this program that I suppose is the first.

In sometime hasn't been dominated by brexit and he's not so far.

I mean the top priority for the public health.

That's not been in the top issue yet.

We might expect that silly brexit that was absolutely Dominic last time along with the economy, and you know that that is not at least they are trying to make it an issue of course, but the other parties have been comparatively muted about it from his reasons.

I wonder what you would reflect on you covered previous elections.

How did this one compared in terms of mediatrans if you've noticed any I think of an effort this time to look at policy actually.

I think as as we just been discussing brexit was the absolutely dominant theme in the last election and not going to squeeze that almost discussion and they were massive charges for the country the last election in the side front brakes it all sorts of issues to do with public services that we need to get into I think there's a lot more space without this time because you haven't got that one binary issue that should.

In the whole of action, so I think we are seeing more discussion of immigration health cost of living crisis tags and I think I seen one that supporting of that to this time around interesting isn't one of them ask you about Paul was an exchange between the Conservative Party chairman, Richard Holden and skies John Craig I'm sure you know the clip that I'm talking about those of you listening.

We heard John Craig putting to Richard Holden that he seemed to be evading his questions about being selected at the last minute for the conservative party's candidate for Basildon and Billericay and that was an appointment despite some local frustrations now.

This was a pool interview meaning that sky was recording on behalf of all broadcast Media there was an Intervention by the aid that was that what did you make the decision John Craig to push very hard that Richard Holden should answer the question and then the decision to the end of the age of Jack did he goes to the line of questioning and suggested that haven't been agreed in advance of the pool clip.

Never known anyone any forklift to require the agreement of the Disco party the person who belongs to at normally you just going to the pool interview.

It's been set up for the broadcast as say you got a list of things around between different broadcasters that morning everyone got their own ideas.

Maybe they got their own interesting investigations that they want to put to a particular maths questions would be decided collectively even though one broadcast.

Yes is the convention is that you know your baby get three or four questions there around 3 or 4 broadcasters on the pool.

So you can ask one question sometimes outlets want the same you know today and last Friday so there might be a quiet life similar questions in that and then as the journalist.

He's going to conduct that pulled into the on behalf of the broadcasters you draw up a list sometimes you take duplicators.

I say but never before my accounts the situation where a man's asked me in terms of the political age.

What are you going to ask? We need to agreed beforehand that that's just not part of the convention at all.

Summertime of this important day for you your interview with Rishi Sunak broadcast at 7 p.m.

On ITV on the two people can watch it back on ITV X absolute as well.


Thanks very much to Pulborough to Camilla Tominey as well from the Daily Telegraph next on the programme.

We're going to talk about baby reindeer this Netflix series which has become very popular and very controversial case we talked about this several times on the media show and there's a good reason for that, but there is plenty of people won't have seen the program, but there is actually a wider question for us all because there are rules for traditional broadcast.

It's time to how will people are treated with the advent of the streamers and the fragmentation of the media and the law the guidance is looks like it's playing catch-up so questions around now write stories about any of us and claim that it's a true story and there's nothing we can do about it and prayers about the rest of the questions.

You know what one person's right to tell their story against another.

Is right to privacy is it right for the vulnerable person into the spotlight without attempting to protect their identity coming back to it again.

If you haven't watched the series The Story of how the Scottish comedian.

Richard Gadd was stalked and harassed by a woman after serving her in a pub his stalker named Martha in the series allegedly sending more than 41000 emails and left 350 hours of voicemails on his phone.

She also turns up that is Home and workplace in the series.

This is a clip of the programme would be outside this taking time for my life.

I would leave first thing in the morning and she would be there first episode of baby reindeer with told this is a true story at the end of the series of the end credits of each addition the program says it's based on real events however.

Characters names incidents locations and dialogue have been fictionalised for dramatic purposes and now Katie we have a further development in the story.

We do because Fiona Harvey she's the woman who is that she's the inspiration for the stalker character Martha in the Netflix drama Netflix for defamation negligence and privacy violations and that Court document was filed just at the end of last week.

She claims that she was falsely detected as a convicted criminal who spent her time in prison for stalking and she's calling my claim for the story is true the biggest lie in TV history there in the court filing.

It's definitely got an American sprinter it that finally has no understatements that whatsoever and it's many pages her lawsuit was filed in California and she is seeking 170 million in and Netflix is important to say at first of all has never said the Fiona Harvey is Andy the inspiration for Martha but it's also said it will defend this matter vigorously and will stand by the right of the

Create a Richard dad to tell his story so I suppose the question we want to ask today as well Fiona Harvey have a case and I want to look at that first from a US law perspective and we're joined by Stewart Benjamin who is professor of Law at Duke University Stuart thank you so much for coming on the media show I wonder if you could just start with W Fiona Harvey is the alleging in this lawsuit so herb first and most important claim is a defamation claim that they made false statements about her injured her reputation.

She made additional claims that might be less likely to win intentional selection of emotional distress negligence in violation of a right of publicity.

I think my Samsung was people's assumption is that the claim the should be most likely to win on as I suggested is there is a defamation claim and why is

Does she have a greater chance of winning a defamation case in the US then she does in the UK because I said that was filed in the US UK laws much tougher on definition of so in particular in the US she has to prove the falsity of the factual claims made about her in the UK Netflix have the truth of the claims about her that's important because some of the claims are going to be hard to prove either way.

How is anybody going to prove it? She said outside 16 hours a day watching him to walk out of his place of work.

She has to prove that false in the US and so that is a higher burden for you might wonder why she's bringing the lawsuit exactly why she not doing it in the UK so she can do next.

And so she needs to Sue Netflix in the US that's where they're located in order to get frankly the bigger outcome for her and if this claim that Rose was talking about that is at the end of the program.

Does that help Netflix is case at all.

Do you think having said that because they are x beginning? This is a true story and not just there but also on their website repeatedly they say the true story and SNP MP and was told by Netflix executive true story say we think that disclaimer doesn't fully undercoat with agreed with you are making and factual claims and after all the credits and I'm not sure how many people stick to the very end of that you can imagine a situation in which in which I say repeatedly what about to tell you with you in about 30-minutes.

And I say well maybe it's not true you can imagine a jury saying what does opening statements are so strong.

We think you are in fact and I can affect your claim and what about if there's some treats in it if she didn't send 41000 emails but they proved she sent 10000 does that does magnitude matter does it have to be wholly true so if it's if it's if it's false then she's talking claimers fault, but she doesn't mention any of that are for complaint complaint is Focus in particular that she was a convicted store your settings and she didn't play guilty in the Richard Gere case and we'll send to a 9-year sentence so she's really focused on those actual claims.

She has actually not talk about all the things that got all the press the many hours of voice mails etc.

Don't have to and what about I mean I've been.

Understory a lot so I'm slightly in the weeds on this, but people might remember Fiona Harvey didn't interview on the Piers Morgan show and told her side of the story.

What does that make a difference to the court case a mistake do you think so we have our was guided by the First Amendment and the Supreme Court has held that if you are public figure fuel injected yourself into into some controversy, then the standard fee was higher in order when a defamation case you have to prove that the person who said the full statement you don't know it was false or was reckless about it's possibly I think that she has a strong argument here, but she is not injected herself in there any day that she was brought into this by many people on the internet who discovered who she was and the interview was just part and parcel of the last that she is bringing.

If it was to say it otherwise then is that girl who would be a private figure and is it in anytime then you bring a lawsuit and you go do an interview about the last thing you become a public figure then we'll be public figures and we're talking about I water inside.

She's wanting 170 million.

How realistic is that is that a typical amount ask for in a defamation case in the in California via Therese yes sure.

Why don't ask for a lot of money.

Let me just say these cases generally settle so you are you're trying ankle with a high opening in effect on the settlement negotiations.

She was so ever but they did say repeatedly this is a true story and that does additional ammunition.

Thank you very much indeed for giving us legal perspective now.

Let's get a UK legal perspective Persephone bridgman.

Baker is partner.

Carter thank you very much indeed for joining the team in the studio If this had been brought in the UK do you think a case could be made the most important thing from the perspective in comparison to the US perspective is the amount of Damages which one will be able to see in.

This is way over and above what you would even be able to put down on your claim for in a claim for this sort in the day and I think that's probably driven the decision to bring it in you and what could you put in the UK so in the UK damages for defamation up into the damages that you would expect a personal injury claim so you might expect in the did the no hundreds of thousands maximum really for defamation payment in the UK callsign of course are defamation claims and overseen by judge alone.

I think that possibly may have been influenced the here because I'm juries are known to be more sympathetic to human stories having said that that could be that could go either way and this case of course because you have to individuals both of you.

Play idiosyncrasies and who knows which way during my turn on that but in relation to the differences in our standards of Proof for example as a reference by Stuart I think the point that he makes will stand here you would have to show that the story was substantially true and you refer to that when you asked about whether or not you had to get the exact numbers of emails right.

I think here it would be difficult to say that if you are if you have stopped somebody if if that can be demonstrated that she has in fact on that whether it's exactly the way that's located in the show I still think that there would be a possibility that the Netflix will be able to find the came here are the Presidents for this kind of defamation case where someone feels like a drink or a series which is based on a true story is clearly referencing them and not reference a reference within an accurate way, so there are a few such claims against Netflix

I suppose the time during which this true genre of series has become more popular in 2020.

There was a claim against Netflix in the US over the Central Park 5 drama, which was called when they see us that was settled in 2022.

There was a claim about the Queen's Gambit against Netflix and that was settled and currently Netflix are defending a claim about the show inventing Anna and my understanding is that Netflix have applied to strike that came out as being groundless and a decision has been made by the US courts that the continue Netflix has lost that interim hearing and if I could bring you in on the previous cases that Persephone is referencing is it the case that a jury consider one claim such as this would be asked to consider previous claims which have been brought.

So they could Netflix has clearly trying to argue.

Irrelevant it's more prejudicial improvement of this term is often often used but yes, that's true.

You would want to say this is a consistent pattern with Netflix the veil without remorse and related to her claim for punitive damages, so I get a difference between us in the UK she is asking for more than 40 million dollars in damages.

That would be designed to stop a wrong door who has done something that pattern of behaviour that is so that the system needs to punish the person to stand at Qatar do we have punitive damages in the UK aggravated damages? I think the doubling down by Netflix on the setting is potentially problematic so the fact that they have repeated that is so true story and indeed one of the senior executives was before a parliamentary select committee repeating that this is not only a true story.

Play the convicted stalker and so that might pay into an aggravated damages type thing and I'm interested in the words that produces Netflix in this case put on screen we've mentioned at the beginning of baby reindeer it says this is true story every inventing Anna episode began with these words this whole story is completely true except for the parts for the completely made up Persephone does that help if you put words night out at the front.

I think that being at the forefront does help and it's unusual baby reindeer in that regard saying this is a true story upfront.

I think might be the death nail for Netflix and baby reindeers on usual.

It's also incredibly popular.

It's one of Netflix's most watched shows of all time now, so I suppose the question is is all publicity good publicity and we're joined by Hannah bowler.

Who's the marketing industry magazine the Drum because we want to have a quick look at how this controversy could affect the bottom line Hannah how are you seeing this? Do you think

Is viewing this controversy with completely kind of Bloomfield spectacles if you can have little spectacles, or is it more complicated than that they certainly have a lot of publicity out of this for Rory yeah? I would say it's definitely a slug Brand on Netflix to run thought of riskier content and storytelling taxi.

I think it's staff at me within their remit and storytelling to run pieces like this and that brings people to Netflix it's definitely sort of on their brands and the question of whether they thought I was bad looking for this type of controversy in order to generate reviews or no all publicity is good publicity little bit boring stuff and interesting on if they were trying to use it as a way of marketing question, what is there too?

Marketing strategy for TV drama, would it be a stretch to say that this one you don't put that money in at the Beginning but then at controversy like this.

You know lights up the internet and everybody wants to watch baby reindeer advertising for baby range at the beginning.

They use a lot of out-of-home.

They're gonna sort of screening and Ali so there was a size of a folder show on this case, but I'd say it's an effective strategy in terms of sudden.

Not helping loads of money into the front end of the launch of the show and I didn't sort of spread by word of mouth.

What do you mean by a bite out of home advertising that builds on the street? I used for marketing lingo that I did hear that in La baby.

I think there's already I had a lot of billboards up on the street advertising baby reindeer.

I'd like to bring Brian here at TV quiz host of the must watch podcast 5 live on BBC sounds.

Hello Scott hi.

Hi, what's your take on the baby reindeer Saga one of us all this drama was incredibly compelling and it continues the trend.

We seen when it's been like save someone's story, but they are in front of the cameras was behind the camera.

Of course.

She has like fleabag.

We've had Michaela coel's I may destroy you as well and is an added Edge when you see this or Chinese because you really feel that there is a message as clear for The Creator that radiates through but he knows we've seen it felt like this has been a runaway train Windows way, it's going to end up and it also I think that x risks the the media buzz around the show eclipsing the initial success of the show to movie.

Because Netflix what's that conversation to be about the TV programme and it's just not really adding up like that anymore.

I had a good I just asked you do you think it's possible to manufacture a water cooler moment anymore in a fragmented Media landscape additionally there has been some sort of narrative that Netflix doesn't put a lot of money Behind the Mask that shows I was saying in recent years.

That's kind of changed and actually we see them as a pretty big Advertiser speak to you have Netflix is pretty major fire.

So yeah, I would say that all sorts of marriage not too much money into that shows is the same as it used to be at the moment.

Thank you very much indeed got thanks too for your thoughts on baby ride.

It we go leave baby reindeer for one moment because to now and the end of the program going to turn to the evolution.

Ttv both talking about the kinds of formats that are getting me but also where we watch reality TV couple of things to mention the 11th series of love Island launch last Monday and we can consider that a legacy TV franchise if you like, it's broadcasting on of course the fire TV and it's been what primarily by the on-demand or underneath the TV but it's facing increasing competition online in the case of YouTube that is primarily where this competition is coming from for example the hugely popular British created the sidemen have Now launched their own reality TV show where 10 influencers are locked in a house for a week 2 battle for a prize worth up to 1 million pounds.

That's a little bit of it 7-days.

Ricardo please step by step out for £1000000 the roof taken absolutely everything from them that I mean I think been trapped in a house full of entrances is not really my bad.

What about watching a people trapped in the house and I think it's got nothing find impressive is that if you are an internet creator and you feel a considerable fanbase if you don't have meetings with the likes of BBC iTV Channel 4 Netflix it's about a year and sell the TV show the next because you don't got to go for all the meetings.

You don't got a cast if you don't gotta go and sort of feel missing head edit it.

I don't know how much lead time they had with this sidemen show but there's something about the internet that means that the turnover is far Far quicker.

You don't have to ask permission.

You don't really even have to deal with Ofcom regulations because it is inherently an internet show so that means that.

It might not be as polished as a show that is on ITV2 at 21.

You can end up having something that is incredibly internet-based and has an instant reaction and also beside me like I did a big charity event at the London Olympic Park in the stadium.

That was a bit like soccer AID it was raising money for a different charity, but it had the production quality of her ITV broadcast I was really it's just a skill of it.

So it's always upping itself in the anti.

Just got who are they I mean they already have friends who have just over the course of 10 years has built a big so I'm following by just being themselves doing challenges reaction videos and knowing exactly how to market themselves.

I think it's certainly generation of creators.

You don't really need TV now famous the same.

I don't like an old lady now, but the only time my son is probably love me as well.

I managed to get any tickets to the sidemen charity football match.

We talking about reality TV and 1 new format is the BBC reality show I kissed a girl which finished it series recently and Sophie Wilkinson is a freelance journalist and I think so yes.

I'm so please just tell me it's you it's 11 series last money Monday but lesbian viewers like you been singing the praises of this show.

It's a dating show the queer women is that actually more radical than it sounds.

I think what's a radical data.

Is that the BBC take on the love Island that is so much more kind as a lot of care around around the contestants.

I'm sure there are plenty of opportunities to beat them and put them in situations that could exploitative but instead.

It's a lot more kind and soft and gentle and Des Lisa moments where they can promise you to talk about issues.

You know let's talk about you know why the hours at the front of LGB

Let's talk about homophobia in the community.

Let's talk about what it's like to be bisexual your neighbours these clear moments that are really designed you know to fill the Education portion of what the beauty is out to do it it just made it so much fun now.

I'm in a bubble of lesbians.

Who are absolutely obsessed with the show we are very very interested as well in like the the after the after show as well.

I'm sure if you bombshells drops and I don't want to go to the toilet but huge that bombshells which heart yeah and now watching out all day on social media that all our allowed to talk about what happened in the 6th a month since filming is very very intriguing that the bubble that I mean is very impressed with it and as much as I can't you know we haven't Society seen the viewing figures yet.

I think they're coming out in time but although we can see the impact that way what I know is that it gives a lot of lesbians.

Lot of confidence to see ourselves represented on screen to have a laugh about it to talk about.

With with each other on WhatsApp it's a really wonderful way of us all coming together sometimes TV programmes feel revolutionary and you think how can it be revolutionary now to make this program and yes, it is, did you that program in that category? I mean there's only a couple of there's only a couple of characters who are cancers there real people but there's only a few people that I think are living quite queer lives and I think like a meander and particular a very very kind of engaging in that way and a lot of the other stories that kind of play out as it is reality show insulated there are some convective elements lesbian dating show pictures of bisexual dating show but that you know that was considered this weird strange thing that was a removed from what normal people did actually was so engaging about this is that there are so many normal.

Just really normal average people and it is pride month is pride month now and the last weekend.

It was a milestone on Doctor Who the first gay Kiss featuring the doctor to Gatwick Scott I just wondered if you could reflect on both I kissed a girl and what's happening Doctor Who in terms of how you how you see these programs impact on the young viewers because I think of myself when I was younger watching these programs.

I remember 20-years ago in Corrie there was a same-sex kiss between two characters having a bit of a Thursday ok males in the media was portrayed as I think in the Daily Express the next day.

They had a headline night of shame and that made me feel that my life as somehow debatable and controversial and I didn't any public affection with a guy for the next five years no hand holding no no kissing and I think if you have is everyday experience of lgbtq plus light switch.

Made by lot of lgbtq plus people trying to represent their lives behind the camera to such an impact you won't see it straight away.

You will see you in about five ten Fifteen Years when the Next Generation trust me it will have a big impact on Facebook and everyone else we are out of time.

Thank you very much indeed to all of you for joining.

Yes, thanks.

Just got Brian and to Sophie Wilkinson from ITV news from the Daily Telegraph and professor Dominic ring from Loughborough University from the rock and Hannah bowler from the you can watch the media show on BBC iPlayer and listen back on BBC sounds, but that is it for now goodbye.



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