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Kyle Jackie O: Make Up Your Own Mind...…

Play Welcome to the media podcast I'm at digging today.

It's a bit of a special that we're heading into one of the most competitive radio markets in the world Australia to talk about the nations biggest Breakfast Show Kyle and Jack there listen to broadcast everywhere from her produces management Talent to the 10-year deal to lock them in.

We will speak to James Corden podcast producer about have the move into podcast is going and Christine McConnell child Australians and back to 5 million ideal breakfast is what audience is probably a clip on Twitter about Australian radio presenters Kyle and Jackie O as they started simulcasting their breakfast show in Sydney to Melbourne generated quite the response half my followers loved it half hated it.

Set I want to talk a little more about it and kind of the nature of broadcast Talent today, so first.

I want to speak to some Australian radio and general Talent Craig Bruce is an Australian radio consultant.

He was on there for many years and was part of Australia's most successful shows including doing breakfast in Melbourne he then on went on to work in programming stereos today network then head of content for SCA Germans time he loves Kyle and Jackie O first breakfast, show me round a popular industry podcast that he bought recently to Chronicle Colin Jackson Melbourne campaign Jean start his career Radio 2 working prestige bri947 amongst others for producing Christian O'Connell on 5 Live to TV to reduce The Wright Stuff what continent is Australia producing Prezzo in Perth and working for Craig before returning to the UK spend time on Christians absolute Breakfast Show exec producing.

Emma Bunton on heart he's just finished exec producing lots of episodes of James Corden's new radio show for Sirius XM and has a new production company called biscuit hello gents hello hello Jeff good to see you mate.

Hello bit too long before we get onto talking about Kyle and Jackie O let's take you know AI is a game-changer for your business.

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I am just as someone has been a UK radio producer.

What do you think of that with that work here? I cannot tell you when I move to Australia re-calibrating, York

Internal alarms with was quite the thing and I don't think I've quite managed to get back there.

It's it's shocking to anybody in the UK to hear a lot of that content on the radio.

I think I can put myself back in my Australian roll and an accept that she that is great content to the audience that Colin and Jack are looking to reach.

I thought I'm sure Craig will talk about this more Craig interviewed his podcast and it was a really telling bit in there.

Where Kyle said we know our audience brilliantly and we know that in that first hour you know it is ladies going to work and nurses coming home and that's our audience and that's who is serving and that's the content they want and

Actually, you know in all of this talk of local radio that is a really local targeting of a specific audience.

It's not geographical, but it's a niche serving it brilliant me and you know killing it and and it's different and it's different here and it's different in Australia if that's what you want.

It's great when there's a lot of talk before they started about how they would do it.

Would they re calibrate for a different Market open on in Sydney for quite a long time but perhaps you guys know how strong they went in.

Yes, I hadn't heard the show for a number of years and I have worked closely with them for a long period of time and and then you know when to do other things and really only just came back in listen to the show in the last 10 weeks in For This podcast on currently doing a little shopping so if it's looking for you guys.

Don't worry shopping for me.

Justin terms of how how far they've stretch the boundaries it's like that thing it's the slow boil that's happened over a number of years certainly the Sydney audience has absolutely been have you tried into a level of content that day I comfortable with rightly or wrongly and the question is a couple of questions around what they doing in Melbourne you know when you do hear them for the first time.

It is confronting like this.

It's just no holds barred and that's not gonna work for a lot of people but they will also be in that will be really comfortable and fine with it because it's not just the swearing in there and they don't necessarily do it for affect it's essentially the patients are happening that are happening of the year and now happening on the year.

You know kept an eye on Kyle and Jackie have been doing over the last couple of years and they told recently in an article.

I called describe the show is the naughty tableware made to get together.

Just took it with each other essentially but this has developed over a long period of time and he's just kept pushing and pushing the boundary so it was shocking for me to hear because to be honest and Jeff I've got no idea how they haven't had a code violation.

I mean honestly we do the mystery of self-regulated.

Oh and you need a list of complaint and the Sydney audiences and complaining that never complained have never complained about konjac for whatever reason the audience profile and enter typical Odyssey top 40 profile where there are women with kids in the car on the way to school in the 8 and it just whatever I don't know how I do it, but they managed to get away so that point around I think for him.

He stopped it and I'm going to put a stake in the ground here and I'm gonna lean into the expected.

We are trouble and I think that first hour which was almost an hour in itself unique to the rest of the showroom in the kind of content ideas between 6 and 17 that are they haven't necessarily replicated so I felt like he just right from the first moment the Mics went on in Melbourne he's gone now apologies.

I'm just going for it and and that's that that's what it is.

So let's go back to first principles people who aren't necessarily aware of who they are or where they come from already the Australian market in the UK for a consolidated now with basically sort of national radio in most places, where did they appear from how we got to hear yes? I've had 20 years on CB radio they started in 2005 as the 9th ranked FM station and if I'm show in a mark of 9 if

Stations are there on the Last FM show took 80 months and I got the number one in September of 2660 results in a row with our number one and they got a lift today in 2013 for keys and the Legend grew as they just took the audience with them and they had some issues in and around that time out before they go to Kia swear.

It was just a lot of backlash about the type of content that would doing and we had some code violations that they will carrying on behalf of context content and so it was it was in a pretty difficult situation towards the end ear and I've got to kiss and he's just reinvented himself as she has that got them.

They're winners and Sydney is the lads winners and everyone has looked at what they've done which is the audience literally following person by person man woman and child have just left today.

Play some of the criteria and of all time so that kind of really submitted a place in the Pop Culture of Zeitgeist in Australia and they just gone from strength to strength.

You know they they I think GoPro 9 share on Kia Swindon started in 2013 and 15 and 16 s to me, it is not the radio show like it in the world really cities are very different City Melbourne Melbourne so much more cosmopolitan European it's conversations coffees a little more subdued were seniors playing in flashy and in three the Two Cities don't like each other so that's one great story so can a Sydney show with a brash love him or hate him host come in Melbourne and shake things up and then you know radio has been telling the story that local really does matter and local will win over national content so I'm really interested as we all are in that question and you guys are gone through that sweet talk about.

Whether that is a story that still worth telling I mean it might be really knows what's going to happen, but it could be a case of Melbourne just rejecting at saying hey look.

It's not he's not last said he doesn't understand the city we prefer our people and I mean that would be a win for the industry.

I'm I'm guessing but I'm not so sure that's going to happen in Sheffield your heart with the breakfast show that was to put across the local areas previously they had kind of local shows with Jamie Theakston Emma Bunton at the time.

What was your take on to the local vs.

National or is it all about the power of Talent in the UK has never had quite the same as session with local that Australia does I mean to give an example when I was in Perth on the Craigs leadership.

You know the alarm will go off on Cottesloe beach.

Nude no all all the breakfast shows next morning.

I've got some take on this how we not own this story and which I think Craig said to me more than once and it would be an obsession like this story.

We got to nail this.

I've got to do it better than the competition.

I don't think it's been quite that competitive and quite that local in the UK with Jamie and I don't think it was never a London Breakfast Show it was a breakfast that happened to be in London you know we would ask Mrs where they were from and if it wasn't London we wouldn't mention if it was we would and that's pretty much is local is that show got so don't think it had a massively change when it went to the National show I think actually that's not dissimilar to call and Jackie I've never really seen that is Sydney they're not doing Huber local Sydney content most of the time that they've already been doing a national show for the last decade.

It's just Eno it's getting too.

A new audience interested and perhaps you'll know Craig whether that show has had a national audience through so the digital listening anyway.

Have there been an audience in Melbourne who was sort of picking it up and using it as their breakfast show even though it's not on the FM dial they have it.

There's a national awareness of car and check it out.

There are no question.

I think the usage question is probably lower than hiring would like to tell you think it might be a few superfans that listening Melbourne another markets that that use them instead of the local breakfast shows but the music is ketchup it's the podcast where the other markets tend to kick in but yeah, I mean again.

You know the difference with Australia is that we have you know we have less less national stars than you guys have and they are operational the other thing that happened in the last period of time with Colin just say that just side of 10-year 200 million hour contract and that's a headline weather.

Cancelling radio not translate 100 million lb 10 years so it's basically year each.

Yes my due Christian has just sign from what we believe a 5 million a year contract with a r n i think also for quite a long period of time that was based on a r m and s e i doing the deal where are in the take over the network which he would have ended up and I'm buying a house of the British guys who was absolute radio presenter in the you left the UK to set up shop in Australia in Melbourne as well start but he's turned into quite a big radio star over there.

I use when I have the game changers podcast and if my mates back in Australia obviously and and I still coming over for one of your conferences and I said maybe we could do a version of you know.

Changes UK so great credit pull all these names to get the people that I've never heard of a new question, but you know I studied up on Ken Bruce and Jamie and we will still be doing what is Nick Ferrari Ferrari was awesome year until the interview with with Christian when we stopped over the end of it here and I'm sure you are in the room the time difference Australia and how do I need to speak to her? I think I could do something on and in my head.

I'm thinking you're fucking crazy what you talking about? I'm gonna work.

He's one of the great presenters, but I just never thought it could work wear an Englishman could come into a property or market like Melbourne and do what he has done.

I mean in terms.

It's one of the great's radio stories and the country has the country city the city have embraced Christian because he's just

You guys know better than I do.

Please just absolutely roller sleeves up and has worked harder than anyone else.

I've seen and then obviously you can buy that with people skill on the radio smart and all those things but there were plenty of people on the sideline going this it is no where in the world is I think the original discussion was around come to Australia do weekends on the rock band the national rock band maybe something like I'm out of that the Christian to his credit had this vision for what he thought he could do and I arrange credit Duncan Campbell Hood speed limit on the UK and I think probably filled articles involving Kieran as well.

They're back to me and you know the great credit.

It's one of the it's one of the great highs really is does it sort of show because sometimes we have blinkers on about about what works what's going to work assumption about the market has changed.

Is sort of the power of actually just great Talent and skill does it be everything else well, I think that's the point Mary I think Christian is probably ironically the harbours and Jack I think Christian has Sean what could potentially happen with Colin Jack which is if you're good enough it really doesn't matter work comes from or where you've come from.

You know he is English accent in any case of Maggie took 6 months from to find his feet but once it goes down.

It didn't matter was just his this amazing man who has invested in the community and thus it is doing everything you can to really Embrace the town and it was authentic and people believe that the different they have no interest in getting on trams or or picking on all the sort of things that you would expect a breakfast to do when they're in Melbourne but yeah, I think Marriotts if you're probably right.

I think there's a question that is one of the questions is that is good enough content good enough Conti

Is that enough it can it just be great Ponton and we don't hear anymore? I'm I'm leaning towards that probably been the case, but it wouldn't surprise me everyone knows therapy is great for solving problems, but it turns out therapy has some difficulties of its own finding the right therapist fitting into their schedule and of course the cost better health consult those problems.

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Why do these big huge famous rich people want to do radio or want to do audio? I think there's still an immediate connection with an audience which draws a lot of people in I think interestingly in Kyle and Christian were talking about people who are Radio Talent through and through you know they have dropped in TV stars on high-speed Breakfast Show and they are winning at what they do and I think that is telling I think there's a place in every schedule for a big name that will get people to try your station or you know it is the shop window that you can use but at the end of the day great radio Talent in I took her back to the

Mention that you had a because you know when went over to do that game changers.

I think it's fair to say Craig didn't have an awful.

Lot of knowledge of who came loose was all he was important in British radio.

I think we've all found that out since but there is still something for a great radio practitioner doing radio brilliantly but the downside that there is a place for a list Talent doing radio and audio and I think you know we've seen big names coming into radio but you know especially in the UK that has been a big thing over the last 10 years and Amanda Holden took over from Emma Bunton on heart.

You know to properly a list price either them agreed to get up at that time in the morning, but I think audio is the next space for that you know that I don't think there's a genuinely a list podcast in the market at the moment.

Yeah, we've had.

Michelle Obama and Meghan and it said but I don't need any truly a list of products that could be the next part of this 7 journey on his radio show podcast podcast on the satellite radio service subscribers in the USA available like a normal show why does someone like James you can sort of you put in the bank and just come off a huge long riding in the States why did you want to do a audio show look success looks different to every person and for James but not speaking for James but from reading of it.

Yes James is done 10 years on on CBS but I'm not going to use a short form.

You know it's 3 minutes and I'll break and a quick game and off you.

Go phone is that it's not.

Interview so the idea of sitting down with you know Kim Kardashian and Tom Ford and Anna Wintour and David Beckham for 90 minutes and doing a properly long-form deep dive is actually an interesting prospect and I think if you can make the proposition interesting.

It's not you know we'll work around James's schedule, so it's not going to be on all of the time.

It is 40 episodes in there a weekly drop but we're recording in a relatively small number of matches.

So it's not it's not taking it all of James is it is creatively rewarding the booking is great.

So there's nobody on the planet would want to sit down with the list of guests we've spoken to and I think those are all the keys.

You look up.

Why is James doing this? What what does success look like to James and how can we create that product with him? You know I should say it's James is for that is James's idea.

Everything else is just thought working around his diarrhoea.

You know of anybody in the UK will know Gavin and Stacey is coming back at Christmas so you know I won't have him for a few months now, but that's ok with you know we're all the photos episodes in the bank and we can really work around James to make this project work.

I think that's where it's a slightly different beast to radio the other projects late last year was Claudia Winkleman here in the UK very publicly she said at the end of that her kids are getting older and weekends are important to her and she doesn't really want to lose all of Saturday and to being on the radio she wants to spend that with her children at home and I guess that both sides of that same problem.

You've got to work around the talent more than Callum worked around you at this level play Kisstory clearly broadcast radio and television were in a huge control your way in the transmitters.

We had a big cheque book to write checks to Talent and they would sort it be.

What is nowadays telly can go kind of direct-to-consumer food podcast or YouTube and broadcasters sort of dominance and control of that Talent has shifted have the company's kind of caught up with that changed.


I mean it just depends on what leverage you have really in the relationship.

So you know talking to Carl the other week nothing happens on that show or around that show with him without them signing off on it.

So the marketing idea that so they've got a concert at the moment in in Melbourne which is make up your own mind which is a sleep a everyone has an opinion on common joke want to listen to the shell make up your mind it's the idea that was his idea.

I know they went back and forth over a long period of time three or four iterations before they learned what he wanted.

I mean he talked on my podcast the other week about it's essentially a licencing agreement between our house with a are in so so no different to a TV show and he has a production.

Reproduction that deals with the content directors and and hits of content so he doesn't really from what I can gather doesn't have a lot to do with the traditional content talent management and dad is something that Kyle can do because he has a 16 shower on the scoreboard and if you don't like it, I'll go somewhere else.

I think you know other radio companies in other situations will try and manage situations as best they possibly can but you're Christian would be in the same situation now.

They are in he has an audience.

He's got a track record and you know he now has a long new long do with a raining and it's in his favour.

I'm in my few people that I don't say with any form of happiness orderly but I think the last great Radio Cars are on the radio.

I don't think they're going to meet anyone's unfortunately Selena straight.

I'm hoping I'm sure it's different the UK with BBC in the younger format stay but in Australia all of the great radio stars are on the

And now they will just stayed with the audience so as a radio company you going to go ok? We'll have Christian is good and it's got his audience and we know is you know consistently brilliant on a day-to-day basis job is he is as long as he wants to do it konjac the same as a couple of other shows that have track records that are going anywhere because why would you take a chance? I think he was going to happen in Australia and I no talk about this is a bit as well met the consolidation.

Is is moving really quickly now big national shows will happen over the next 2-3 years call and check will be the first there will be others national all the things that you've gone through and all of the pain that has happened for individuals on the way through that are no longer working in radio or radio adjacent Industries like podcasting.

That's all coming for a straight.

I think and you know some of us are accepting of that and others are struggling a bit with that.

I think about have we seen the last, Gravesend

The on the air is different here in the UK do you think the scale of ARDS patients moments do you think it's it's a tricky ecosystem sure bringing through new Talent I think we're in her over dependency of looking to say influences and social media Talent to fill those rolls at the moment.

I think possibly the tide is is changing their I think it's interesting what Craig's is especially if that last great generation of radio Talent are on here at the moment.

Does making those national brands create a headache five years down the line or 10 years down the line who's going to replace Kyle when he leaves when you've now got a national Breakfast Show sort of easier when you've got several metro stations to kind of bed new Talent in and you know and I saw that in Perth

Often a place where Talent would get sent to learn their trade before coming to a bigger market that that journey existed.

It's less so if you've got fuel national shows so I think that's slightly worrying trend for new Talent just sorry to interrupt the one of the reasons the contract deal hasn't happened earlier that very reason that I really want to put all of this on black and if I leave in 10 years.

Yes, it's someone else's problem 10 years from now, but how to unwind a shower business model around this thing working and I think that had always been in the back of their minds over a long period of time because you know The Ridings would suggest and we're moving would suggest that you would move to that model in a maybe two or three years earlier, but I think that's always been there challenge which is ok with you.

Are we getting married here is this permanent? What does this look like?

Because it all in college a fiver now.

I've got a 10-year deal and I'll probably saw another 5UD laughter that so yeah, there is no replacement strategy.

There's no Plan B what's the world with living in their right.

It's just that we all have to get comfortable with that went through that with Andy and the end of that show being incredibly disruptive you know to a lot of network.

They were the Kings of SCA at that period and sent me while I was there with you.

No longer while you were there so it can be really attractive to a new network to put everything on black you a lot of bigger Talent have broadcasters god almost create joint Ventures with and sort of what I have done with with Kyle and Jack I've been here in the UK to entice those big Talent into the global all the powers of the world.

Have you got to come up with new ways of working?

Terms of trade on those are so important and I know and you will know audio UK have just done a massive piece of work with the BBC and their terms of trade and you are looking to land Talent those IP conversations those you know rights reversion clauses are are everything nobody's doing anymore and there is a bigger picture to everything so I think that is absolutely crucial at the heart of every Talent conversation.

I think of everything I've heard around Kyle and Jackie that licencing comment of the show existing in its own right and being licenced to a radio station to be there for show is I think the most telling future trend in this entire story I can absolutely see Talent owning the show and perhaps.

Percentages of commercial income from that show in the future, it's not we're not a minimal get like Australia to yeah.

I agree and it's interesting you know what you have done is that insulated themselves from people like me to be on at the appointed time with Mike for you guys and a few listeners.

Is that when I think about Colin Jack and I wish to have a show has evolved so you were talking before about long form vs.

Short form.

The two things that stood out for me.

Obviously was the line that has moved in terms of how a g the show is and the language and the person that was one of the other things sorted out for me was the 25-minute topics that they do with music so so song count out the door.

You know it's called said I would rather talk for 25 minutes because they're all is well here speak and we'll plan and will come back and took some more you know and we might take.

Tate McRae for two-and-a-half minutes, but you know if we want to talk for another 25 minutes if the content is good, that's what we're going to do and when I when I heard him talk about that and when I heard the shower and and you know he has to be he's protecting himself from people like me because people like me would say 5 minutes or brakes hear the news on Time song count in all the things that we think or import radio.

He has proven people like me to be wrong at every single term and I think the lesson for us.

It's programmers and Talent development people is you know when you get someone that's really unique like I'll and Christian suddenly Kyle and Jackie O B off.

It was once found a formula it has to be there and you've just gotta get out of the way.

That's one of the reasons.

It's not a licencing agreement, but that's how he sees it's like stay away from me.

I know what I'm doing.

I'll bring you in one I need you but

He's not getting a checked by people like me anymore because he knows what he's doing and sometimes had a hard thing for us to get their heads around cos you want to feel like I need to be involved.

I need to be supportive in some but the most important thing that you can do again.

It was up to me this sort of the show would have five songs an hour and 5-minutes or brakes and it would be not even close to the show that it is today so listen for us and then it's certainly for me individually out a loan from that you when you get someone really talented you gotta get out of the way.

It doesn't happen often.

I mean I'm experienced this three times in my career.

How much money would be the other obvious one and silicon Jackie they might be one or two others but it does take a bit too.

Just let the Kyle for me listening to that show Craig the still a lot of traditional commercial radio furniture around what is quite a revolutionary show and and for me at.

It's during when they'll go and play a pop quiz or pop a guess the noise old-school formats in what is a revolutionary show do you think there's more to come from them of pushing that furniture away and just doing their own thing and maybe this is you need to suggest Christian is it seem like Kyle is an old school radio person.

So you know everyone is talking about that show right now and he could have talked to anyone in the Media TV you know magazines whatever any came to us our Melbourne radio Wars podcast just want to talk to people like us so someone off in that respect.

So he's got he's got the radio mind and then he's got the frankly the balls to go.

You know why I'm just going to do it my way and and then he's got.

Medical partnership with Jackie this chemistry and dynamic with a cantor for 20-minutes and it's still interesting at the 17:19 find out for them see if we've gotten in the way produced and James Corden who produces themselves.

Are you able to produce a producer let me know when you're ready what you trying to make them to I did I did think when I was in the car and Jackie a couple of days ago and I thought I'm not sure how it produced this not sure if I'd be allowed to reduce this there is a there is an alternate universe.

I don't know if Craig remember this but when I first went to Australia Craig asked me if I come to Sydney and have a conversation about working on Kyle and Jackie O show at the time me and my family decided not to put Aldi's in Kyle's hands which may or may not have turned out to have dinner a good decision in the long term.

How do you produce Talent like that? I think this is true of Talent Who good producers and it's true of any creative I put James in that same category as a really shrewd operator a lot of time.

It's not getting out of their way and letting them operate and sure you can you know give advice feedback but you know I think any producer who thinks they know everything is probably going through that hubristic phase that we all go through Christian is a great example of someone who would come with 50 ideas a day and actually just needed a little help picking them was probably his thing when I left Chris is show I bought Chris a gift for me leaving as I actually have so much from you as the how to reduce the show then probably any of the other producers that I've ever worked with but I think the key thing is working collaboratively with them and

Out of their way, they good for a reason there where they are for a reason and if you can protect them, but you know this is a personal thing I've never been that producer on it because I think I'm part of my job with that scale of Talent is to be able to defend them when it all goes wrong and I can't be part of that so I I will very much sit back and everybody else and coming into the studio was going to mention an example and it's probably best not to but your job quite often is the producer of a show can be to keep management out of the studio to let your talent shine and quite often you're that guardsman at the door, but it is it is a joy to work with Talent who have that pretty to make radio or bring great ideas and quite often your facilitating.


I've always found that some of the programme show with a light touch you know.

Play easy to go into a show that is new that is young where you can you know you've got a transfer some information over a period of time and you can go back to basics and all sorts of things but with high-end Talent in a Pro with a light touch all supporting them with the light touch it so much more nuanced because you know what can I say in this moment to help them feel selfish Jordan and comfortable with this piece of feedback either head around the working with high and it was just to talk to them about reactions to personal reaction, so if you've heard a show and you've reacted something funny emotionally whatever it might be that will be enough for them.

Just to go you know that you did allowed a clock that was really funny or that really moved me I haven't talked about that like that before and then that's that's enough you could have gotten out early or it was it 5 minutes and not free mobile number that just the reaction.

Who do that made me stop and think about my own family or when I heard that please? I've never thought of it like that before and I really appreciate that in the moment that's enough because the idea is that you know sometimes we get lost in the fact that we think that a light touch means no feedback at all.

I can guarantee you and and I think I've said this to Jeff before as well.

So you know I did 50 a graders the game changers podcast like a great Christmas that level of presenter and I can tell you the same conversation.

I had at the end of every interview in the Mics went off.

They would look at the other side of the desk and go was that ok Craig I'm going away fucking talking about you know you you're a superstar was ok, so don't think that these people you know it's privado if you see that confidence and self Assurance but they just want to know that the do we have a connection hear that work and so that kind of feedback with high in Talent it's a match.

Nothing to do because your check is right you gotta find a way to get out of the way, but you also want to show that your you listening and your and you're engaged in what they doing and you wanted to show appreciation and wishing for something that's worked.

So I think that that's certainly something I tried to wherever I can I think I think listening is the is the keyword your your job is to listen more than talk at that well, Craig and Jeff it's been great to listen to you.

Talk at your levels for the last hour.

Thank you.

Where can people keep up with what you're doing here in the States I highly recommend downloading the siriusxm app and listening to James this show and for anyone else biscuit lovely.

Yeah, where abouts are we now 8 episodes in to Melbourne radio walls which which is more than just about Melbourne there's a lot of strategy and marketing in and unit of discussions that we're having so we'll run.

Result or I can maybe light July August We Can Survive result with Colin Jack that is a full survey results.

I will see what that looks like so if you get a chance to have a listen that would be awesome and always good to talk with you Maddy and great to see you again.

Jeff different was one of the great producers and a great loss when he decided to go home, but I've always had a great connection with Jeff and it's good to see if I stay in my mate.

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